We plan our life, so why not plan for our death?


The majority of the UK have not made a Will, which seems a tad bizarre as we are all going to die at some point, we just don’t know when! We explore with Natalie Chapman, legal expert for Trusted Law, what happens if you die without a Will and what steps we all need to take to protect our loved ones. Promise it is not morbid! Listen to her podcast here Planning for our deaths!

We have an ever growing library of useful information you can find here: BGC Free Knowledge

Hello, everybody. Neil Foley from Business Growth Club here. Very fortunate today to have Natalie Chapman with us from Trusted Wills and Probate Limited. What we’re hoping to do over the next few minutes is explore why you should be making a will, what you should be planning for the unexpected and lastly powers of attorney. Hopefully you’ll find it interesting and stimulating. Good morning to you, Natalie.

Natalie Chapman:            Good morning, Neil.

Neil Foley:                           Let’s get straight into the subject, in terms of why should people make a will?

Natalie Chapman:            Mainly to ensure that their assets go where they want them to, to ensure that they appoint guardians for any minor children that they have. They can choose who they want to have as their executors, the people that administer their estates on their behalf. They can also stipulate their funeral wishes. There’s many, many reasons why you can make a will, but it’s very personal to the individual and every person is different, every driver for actually making a will is different.

Neil Foley:                           I guess we talk about death and taxes being the only two known things in life if you like. I don’t know what the stats are, but I hear every now and then these quite surprising statistics that so many people haven’t made a will. Why is that, then?

Natalie Chapman:            I think it’s about 60% of the population don’t have a will. From what I’m finding from most of my clients, the main reason is time. People don’t have a lot of time to actually go and see a solicitor. Most solicitors are nine to five, Monday to Friday. They don’t want to take time off work to go and deal with it.

Other people very much just don’t like talking about the topic of death. They don’t like talking about the fact that it’s inevitable. There are a few that I have met that have said that they feel as though once they start talking about it, it might happen, which is very interesting, but a big one is time. It’s always on the bottom of people’s to-do list. People don’t necessarily, they understand that they should do it, they don’t necessarily understand the importance and the fact that it should be done sooner rather than later.

Neil Foley:                           Time in some ways, it feels like an excuse. People find time to negotiate their mobile phone contract or Netflix or whatever, but the reality is … I suppose that if it’s important to make a will, what happens if you haven’t got a will, then? I suppose maybe that’s what people don’t understand. Say I pop my clogs today and I haven’t got a will, what’s the procedure for me? If we were not married and I died, does my partner, is she the next of kin?

Natalie Chapman:            No. No.

Neil Foley:                           Really?

Natalie Chapman:            Yeah. She wouldn’t be classed as the next of kin.

Neil Foley:                           Who would then, if you said the children, so would be the children be the ones who in theory should deal with my estate as personal representatives?

Natalie Chapman:            Yeah.

Neil Foley:                           But not my partner?

Natalie Chapman:            If they’re of adult age-

Neil Foley:                           Over 18, presumably.

Natalie Chapman:            Yeah, if they’re over 18.

Neil Foley:                           Wow.

Natalie Chapman:            Yeah. They also wouldn’t be the person who would automatically receive everything from your estate, so you could be left in a situation where you’re unmarried, you pass away having minor children or even adult children that don’t like your partner, but actually it’s those children that will benefit from your estate and that will receive everything and your partner will be left with nothing.

Neil Foley:                           What happens to joint assets then?

Natalie Chapman:            It depends on how they’re owned. It’s a very complicated area. When it comes to property, there is two ways in which you can hold property. One way is called joint tenants and that has an automatic survivorship aspect to it, so the property would automatically pass to a survivor, a surviving joint owner, whereas you can hold as tenants in common which basically means you own your share and your share is passed as per your will or intestacy rules. If you have it as tenants in common, then it won’t automatically pass over. Which it does happen, quite often conveyances don’t have the client or let the client have that option. They automatically default to one or the other.

Neil Foley:                           How would you know how a property is held?

Natalie Chapman:            By looking at the title at the land registry.

Neil Foley:                           Right, okay.

Natalie Chapman:            That’s something that I do before every client appointment.

Neil Foley:                           Right, okay. This is now all online you can do because people years ago would’ve had the deeds and that, I guess as long as it’s a registered property which is what, post 75 or something like that?

Natalie Chapman:            Yeah. They phased it in slowly. It’s now mandatory that every property has to be registered when a transaction happens, but it was phased in the 70s and 80s.

Neil Foley:                           You could have older properties where actually it’s still not registered with an older couple.

Natalie Chapman:            Yeah. I’ve come across a few recently.

Neil Foley:                           What do you need to do then? Actually find the deeds?

Natalie Chapman:            Yeah. Yeah. Find the physical deeds which are normally in someone’s drawer somewhere or still held at the bank. A lot of banks still hold original deeds.

Neil Foley:                           Do they?

Natalie Chapman:            Yeah.

Neil Foley:                           You never think of that, do you?

Natalie Chapman:            No.

Neil Foley:                           You need to make a will even if you’re not married because there’s no … The common law actually doesn’t exist it, does it?

Natalie Chapman:            No. Common law spouse

Neil Foley:                           There is no common law, it’s just a silly term.

Natalie Chapman:            Yeah.

Neil Foley:                           If you own the assets jointly then potentially it could just go to the survivor.

Natalie Chapman:            Potentially. We’re only talking about property. It’s only houses land, et cetera. Bank accounts, things like that would be completely different.

Neil Foley:                           If you’ve got no children, obviously there’s a difference if you’ve got children. If you’ve got no children, is it just saying, “Well actually it doesn’t really matter because it’s all going to my … We’re married, it’s all going to go to my spouse anyway”?

Natalie Chapman:            If you’re married and you don’t have children, then it will pass over to your spouse.

Neil Foley:                           Everything?

Natalie Chapman:            Up to 450,000.

Neil Foley:                           Over that?

Natalie Chapman:            It then goes half to your spouse and half to your next of kin and the line is parents, siblings, I think it’s grandparents after that and then aunts and uncles.

Neil Foley:                           It’s even though there’s just the two of us, it’s not even automatic then that it’s all going?

Natalie Chapman:            No.

Neil Foley:                           So there is almost no circumstance where you shouldn’t have a will, in the sense of everybody should?

Natalie Chapman:            No.

Neil Foley:                           I wonder if that’s the real reason why people don’t do it, partly the jinx, and I can understand that to a degree. Most of us won’t walk under ladders, when you become aware of things, I don’t know, maybe you think you can jinx it but actually I think they just don’t realise the implications.

Natalie Chapman:            No, they don’t. It’s a very complicated area. It is a very complicated area and people just don’t want to think about it. There’s multiple companies online where you can go on and write your will online. I have had a look at them to see how complicated it is and actually within about the first three pages, I just thought, “People are either going to get bored of this or they won’t actually understand what it all means.” It is a very complicated area and it is … I always joke with my clients and say that it’s better to get it done professionally or get it written professional because you’ve got to come back. Your executors can come back to me if I do it wrong. Having said that, it’s still better to get professional advice anyway.

Neil Foley:                           It seems a bizarre thing doesn’t it when you’re dealing with something as crucial and as important, why you’re trying to do it for 20 quid online or something from WH Smiths or whatever, it seems an odd thing to do, doesn’t it? Of all the things to save money on, this doesn’t sound like one of them.

Natalie Chapman:            No. There’s an interesting statistic that came out last year that said the average court costs for a contested will or a contested DIY will was about 20,000 on a typically 200,000 pound estate.

Neil Foley:                           Wow.

Natalie Chapman:            You’re talking 10% just in court just to deal with a mistake in a DIY will, which is a huge challenge.

Neil Foley:                           Absolutely. In my experience in dealing with the probate office, I’ve dealt with them a few times, they’ve always been extremely helpful and very knowledgeable but they obviously stick to their line. I remember reading, I can’t remember what the exact statistic was, but of course with the do it yourself and the rest of it, they’re just open to more scrutiny aren’t they in terms of how were they signed, where they signed with two independent witnesses at the same time?

Natalie Chapman:            Yeah.

Neil Foley:                           Then they have quite a line of questioning because they know this is an area which is open to abuse.

Natalie Chapman:            Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I came across some wills the other day of a client who they gave them to me, I had a look at them, checked the witnesses and they hadn’t been witnessed correctly and they thought that they had valid wills for that kind of three or four years. That was a bit of a surprise for them.

Neil Foley:                           How did that happen?

Natalie Chapman:            They just got one witness.

Neil Foley:                           Really?

Natalie Chapman:            Yeah. Yeah, they signed it with one witness.

Neil Foley:                           What would happen in that case? Would the probate office then make a decision as to whether they thought it was valid?

Natalie Chapman:            No, it would be an invalid will.

Neil Foley:                           Just invalid full stop?

Natalie Chapman:            Yeah. Invalid full stop. It would be for the family members to dispute it, I guess, but yeah, it would be an invalid will. They would’ve passed away intestate.

Neil Foley:                           What should people do about the storage of wills? Again, you hear some statistics, there’s quite a chunk of wills aren’t they which in theory are never found.

Natalie Chapman:            Yeah.

Neil Foley:                           I suppose the cynic in me would say sometimes they are found but people don’t like them so they just get rid of them. There is no central register, is there?

Natalie Chapman:            No, there is no central register. There’s a lot of online registers at the moment where you can go on and register the fact you have a will. I’ve used it before with my clients. It doesn’t give any details about the will, it just literally says that there is one in existence and the date in which it was made. There is no central bank where they’re stored. Probate office do require the original will to be able to issue probate. They won’t work off a certified copy or a photo copy, they do need the original will. It’s always best to have all wills stored securely, preferably not in your safe in your home because there is a vulnerability there that your family members may find it, don’t like it, and do destroy it. It’s always better to store them elsewhere. I offer a storage service, so all of my clients wills go into storage and they get a little storage certificate from me so that their executors can know where it is when they need them.

Neil Foley:                           I know some European countries literally do have a central register don’t they? I know that Spain did and we had an experience with that within the family where it was very clear that Dad’s will was in Madrid. I don’t know why we don’t do that.

Natalie Chapman:            I don’t either.

Neil Foley:                           You’d think it’d just be logical.

Natalie Chapman:            They have different laws in Spain, they’ve got the heirship where you’re almost forced to leave it to children or descendants. They have different laws and views in other countries. I don’t know why we don’t have a central storage, but we don’t so you’re open to vulnerabilities. Not just the cynic and you say about people ripping it up, but something as simple as a house fire would just wipe it out immediately if it’s in a drawer somewhere.

Neil Foley:                           People get confused and I know going through my father’s bits and bobs before he died, he died relatively recently, we were going through his will and he got very confused with it because he had an old will but it had been superseded. He thought, he had this vague recollection because of course it was done a long time ago because your memory gets a bit blurred and by the time you’re ill then you’re not necessarily thinking entirely logically either. We did find some old wills, but of course in the back of your mind you think, “This can’t still be the most recent one,” and then of course we found another one. People don’t always destroy the old ones either do they?

Natalie Chapman:            No, they don’t. It’s always recommended that you do. You should destroy your old ones and any copies as well because anything like that is open to dispute if somebody doesn’t like what’s in the will but they actually like the previous version. It’s basically giving them evidence to actually dispute it.

Neil Foley:                           I’ve had that with a client in a previous business where I had acted for them on a variety of occasions. She had a stroke and she was found by her brother. She always had a difficult relationship with her brother, but I’d never met him but I’d known her for probably 10 years or so, her and her husband, the husband had died. She then had a stroke, brother found her, called the police who broke into the house and everything else and poor lady had had a, was severely ill. He then spent the rest of the day going through her possessions and actually found her will which did leave him some money but didn’t leave him everything. He actually called me and phoned me that while she was in the hospital to talk about the will.

Natalie Chapman:            Oh my word.

Neil Foley:                           You had to say, “Crikey,” they talk about money being difficult within families, and he was really miffed because he’d seen it and realised he was only getting a percentage rather than all of it.

Natalie Chapman:            Yeah.

Neil Foley:                           Really awkward conversations.

Natalie Chapman:            That’s part of the reason why a lot of wills are disputed because people don’t talk about it. I’ve had clients who have said, “Nobody will ever see this will until the day that I die,” and I’ve said, “Is that the best way to go with it? Is it not best to kind of make your family members aware of what you’re doing?” You are just opening yourself up to disputes. I can understand why some people do it, they have estranged children, there’s many reasons why people exclude people or want to give them less but actually just having those up front conversations with them, yeah, it would be uncomfortable, it would be awkward, but at least then they’re less likely to dispute it because they know in advance.

Neil Foley:                           Know what’s going on.

Natalie Chapman:            Yeah.

Neil Foley:                           If we talk about children for a second, I know that it’s often difficult to think of guardians isn’t it, potential guardians. It’s not an easy subject, is it?

Natalie Chapman:            No, not at all.

Neil Foley:                           If you think of the reality of it, somebody’s got to look after your kids and financially that’s a burden, logistically it could be difficult because unless they’re local … How’d you get around those problems?

Natalie Chapman:            Everybody is individual. Everyone’s personal with their choice of guardian. I can’t really advise somebody on who to choose although quite a few of my clients like to put me in that position. It’s a very difficult topic. I personally struggled when we had the twins to choose the most appropriate person. My family never wait, so it’s quite difficult and Darren’s an only child, so it’s quite difficult for us. To be honest, we’re still struggling with our choice of guardian, although we do have our wills obviously with a guardian choice in it. A lot of people automatically default to their parents for guardian, which is fine, but obviously it depends on how old mom and dad are and whilst they probably say that they are happy and willing to do it, would they be happy and willing at 70, 80 years old to deal with a teenager? Probably not so much.

You do have the option to be able to put in a reserve guardian, so if people are very insistent on having their parents as their guardians, I normally just say let’s put in a reserve just in case mom and dad aren’t up for it. We just pop in a reserve which is normally a friend or a relative, a sibling. It’s a difficult topic, I’ve gotten quite a few people who want to make their will but they’re putting it off because they don’t know-

Neil Foley:                           That doesn’t make any sense, does it?

Natalie Chapman:            No, because they don’t know who to have as guardian.

Neil Foley:                           What they’re saying essentially is, “I can’t decide so I’ll leave it to the social services.”

Natalie Chapman:            Yeah.

Neil Foley:                           None of us would really say, because the social services wouldn’t know your children or know the family. They’d be better off making a decision even if it’s not a definitive one and then reviewing, wouldn’t it?

Natalie Chapman:            Yeah.

Neil Foley:                           You can amend a will, can’t you?

Natalie Chapman:            Yeah. You can change a will as often as you like.

Neil Foley:                           Either rewriting or just a codicil?

Natalie Chapman:            I prefer to rewrite, just going back to the storage discussion. If somebody, you have your will and then you have a codicil which is a separate document, that codicil can easily become lost-

Neil Foley:                           You don’t attach it to the will?

Natalie Chapman:            It can still easily be detached. Professionally in the past I’ve preferred to just rewrite the will. Even if it’s just a case of swapping out some names, I’d rather just rewrite the whole will.

Neil Foley:                           And indeed probate office doesn’t like things like things being stapled to wills do they because of that very point, you know, you’re not quite 100% sure what was there.

Natalie Chapman:            Yeah. There has been cases where there’s been staple marks in a document but no document attached to it and the probate office have queried it and family members have said, “Yes there was,” and other family members have said, “No there wasn’t,” and it’s gone to court over it. Yeah, I prefer to make a whole new will. It’s fresher, it’s cleaner, it’s easier to just do that. You can amend your will as many times as you like. Obviously the older you get, the more susceptible you are to disputes, especially if there’s a big difference-

Neil Foley:                           And exclusions.

Natalie Chapman:            Yeah. There’s a big difference between the two versions, then you could potentially have a dispute situation but note while you’re young, fit, healthy, relatively young I guess, you can change your will as often as you like.

Neil Foley:                           Everybody starts off, “This is my last will and testament and I revoke all others.”

Natalie Chapman:            Yeah, definitely.

Neil Foley:                           I know wills is part of what we should do in terms of death but obviously we also should be dealing with issues of capacity so when you’re alive and not for death, and lasting powers of attorney have been around a little while now.

Natalie Chapman:            Yeah, they have.

Neil Foley:                           Are they proving more popular?

Natalie Chapman:            They are and actually the registration fee has just been decreased by the government.

Neil Foley:                           That’s an unusual step, isn’t it?

Natalie Chapman:            Yes, yes. It was 110 pound per document, it’s now gone down to 82.

Neil Foley:                           Okay.

Natalie Chapman:            The reasoning behind it I find peculiar, but they said that they’re finding more people are making their power of attorney so they wanted to reduce the fees to make it available to more people, so that’s a good thing. A lasting power of attorney is something that everybody should consider in my opinion. It’s there to cover you if you are involved in an accident and you are unable to make decisions, so for example if you ended up in a coma, you’re unable to make your own decisions. I think the important thing to note about lasting powers of attorney or about people making decisions on your behalf when you’re unable to is again with the wills, there is no automatic provisions for one person, whether that’s a spouse, a partner, or a parent. There is no automatic provision in place for those people to be the people that deal with your-

Neil Foley:                           Even as a married couple.

Natalie Chapman:            Even as a married couple. If heaven forbid there was a car accident and my husband was in a coma, there’s no automatic provision for me to deal with his affairs. The only way that I’d be able to do that after the fact would be to apply to court for deputyship and that is a very long and costly process. Having said that, we’ve got our lasting powers of attorney in place so if something does happen then we’re covered.

Neil Foley:                           Yeah. People should have both shouldn’t they? I understand there’s one that deals with money or property and there’s one that deals with health and wellbeing.

Natalie Chapman:            Yeah.

Neil Foley:                           You should have both presumably.

Natalie Chapman:            That’s actually a choice. You don’t have to have both, you can have one or the other. More often than not, older people, the elderly definitely should be having the health and welfare one. It enables their family to make decisions about their day-to-day care that they wouldn’t be able to if that elderly person was mentally incapable. The property and finance one is definitely something that everybody should consider having because you could end up in a situation where a husband’s unable to make any decisions if he happens to be the main bread winner and actually you can’t deal with any of the money or any of his accounts without a power of attorney. There was a video, an interview done on the One Show a few months back and a man had been struck by a car when he was walking down some lanes and ended up in coma. They didn’t have a power of attorney in place and actually she said that they had their wills and they thought that was the only thing they needed and she had to go to the court of protection to apply and they granted her deputyship but they restricted it to 500 pounds.

Neil Foley:                           What? 500 quid?

Natalie Chapman:            Yeah. They had a daughter who was just about to start university.

Neil Foley:                           Wow.

Natalie Chapman:            While she got the deputyship, she was still very restricted in what she could do whereas if they’d had that power of attorney in place, she would’ve just been able to run with it from day one.

Neil Foley:                           So for the cost of 82 quid they could’ve actually done the right thing.

Natalie Chapman:            Yeah. Again, powers of attorney are very much like wills, you can do it yourself. There is the opportune and the facility to be able to do them yourself. Again, the wills, if you make one mistake, then it could cost you in the long run.

Neil Foley:                           Yes. Yeah, I can well imagine. Again, you should just seek advice shouldn’t you really?

Natalie Chapman:            Yeah.

Neil Foley:                           I should apologise at this point because we’ve got a hoover going in the background. If anybody can hear that, we’re in a hotel. There’s a hoover, see if you can hear it. I know in terms of the power of attorney as I said with my dad, the palliative care that we got was outstanding, just brilliant. It was one of the things that they raised very quickly is to say, “Has dad made a decision regarding resuscitation?,” which you can obviously do in the health and welfare one to say very clearly, “Yes he had made the decision when he had his capacity and no he didn’t want to be resuscitated.” It made life so much easier for everybody because we knew what his thoughts were and then the NHS knew what his thoughts were because it was written down and proven. It just made life easier in a very tricky, difficult, and emotive situation. It was just so much easier.

Natalie Chapman:            Absolutely. Going back to the comments that I made earlier about talking to your family and making them aware what’s in your will, when it comes to your power of attorney, your attorneys actually have to sign a document as well. You can’t get away with appointing people and them not being made aware of it because they all have to sign it. With the health and welfare one there is a section in there that says about whether or not you give your attorneys the authority to make decisions about life sustaining treatment. It’s very clear in there what way you’d like to go with it. It’s certainly a lot easier on the family members.

Neil Foley:                           Yes, we certainly found it that way. Of course you can appoint more than one attorney can’t you? So again, with money you can have joint and even decide can’t you whether they’ve got to unanimously decide or if there’s some things they can do separately and some they have to be-

Natalie Chapman:            Yeah. You can appoint up to four attorneys and you can appoint up to four replacement attorneys. Quite often, I’ve seen this happen and I’ve actually revoked them, clients appoint their spouses as attorneys and that’s as far as they go. In that situation, I spoke with the clients and I said, “If you’re both in a car accident, Mrs dies but Mr is left in a coma, who is going to deal with his affairs on his behalf? You haven’t got a replacement or a reserve in place.” In that situation, we revoke their current ones and we’ve now put new ones in place.

Neil Foley:                           Yeah, makes perfect sense. Otherwise it would fail, wouldn’t it?

Natalie Chapman:            Yeah, it would fail.

Neil Foley:                           Everybody really should have a replacement.

Natalie Chapman:            Yeah.

Neil Foley:                           Okay. How do you go about getting your business then, Natalia? I can imagine these are difficult subjects aren’t they?

Natalie Chapman:            They are.

Neil Foley:                           You don’t wake up thinking, we probably all think we should be doing this, but for most of us it won’t make any difference whether I do it today or not. How’d you go about getting your business then?

Natalie Chapman:            It’s a difficult one, Neil, thanks.

Neil Foley:                           Sorry.

Natalie Chapman:            I work alongside quite a few businesses locally who recommend me to their clients, mainly because they want their clients to have a good service. I work with a couple of mortgage brokers, a couple of IFAs, some accountants, and we basically, they … Thank God, the hoovers stopped. They recommend their clients to me and I’m responsible for looking after them-

Neil Foley:                           You’re working with a number of professionals?

Natalie Chapman:            Yeah. That works quite well. Other avenues is just networking, talking to people. I find the one thing with this topic is it’s a very personal topic, so actually just being at the forefront of people’s minds is the best way. A lot of people will make their will when they suffer a loss themselves or they’re told of news of somebody they knew who has passed away … There’s the hoover again. That’s a prompt for a lot of people. As you said, it’s not that they wake up one day and say, “I’m going to make a will today.” It is normally prompted by something or actually they’re finally getting it done.

Neil Foley:                           You make life easier because you’ll go and see them, go and see them in their home.

Natalie Chapman:            I do, yeah. I go and see them at home. I would also make evening and weekend appointments as well if that’s better and that tends to work very well for people who either work nine to five, Monday to Friday or people with young children I’ll quite often go and see them once they put the kids to bed.

Neil Foley:                           Yeah, so they can relax and talk about it-

Natalie Chapman:            Yeah, the kids are out of the way. I do go and see them at home. I would say most of my clients are appreciative of that fact. It’s just an easier and convenient service for them.

Neil Foley:                           Okay. A final thought then, Natalia. If you could take yourself back to when you were 18 or a young woman, what advice would you give yourself? What would you say to yourself now that you’re a little bit older and a little bit more worldly wise?

Natalie Chapman:            Think about the inevitable.

Neil Foley:                           Okay.

Natalie Chapman:            Definitely. I have seen, I’ve been doing this for about three and a half, four years. What they teach you in a textbook when you’re learning all of this is not actually what happens in real life. I have seen many clients come to me with many different problems and they don’t necessarily, they don’t necessarily think about things logically because there’s a lot of emotion involved. Many people actually don’t want to think about death because they don’t see it as something that will happen to them.

Neil Foley:                           It happens to other people.

Natalie Chapman:            Yeah, it happens to everybody else but not them. Same with mental incapacitation as well, a lot of people won’t consider making a lasting power of attorney because they don’t consider themselves old enough to do it. Things are inevitable, death is inevitable. You see car accidents all the time happening. It just takes a split second for everything to change and seeing the other side, what happens to an estate when somebody dies without a will is heartbreaking, actually. Dealing with those families and the stress that they have to go through is actually heartbreaking for them, especially if there’s young children involved as well.

Neil Foley:                           Capacity is one of those things that can come and go, isn’t it? You don’t have to lose it automatically forever. You could get your capacity back at some point, couldn’t you?

Natalie Chapman:            Yeah. I had a friend a few years back, she had very young children, a three year old and a one year old at the time, very similar to the time when I had my children. She actually unexpectedly had a bleed on the brain and ended up in a coma for three months at 27 years old.

Neil Foley:                           Good God.

Natalie Chapman:            It’s a bit of an eye-opener.

Neil Foley:                           Yeah, no, very much so isn’t it.

Natalie Chapman:            Until you’ve experienced something like that, you wouldn’t necessarily think about it.

Neil Foley:                           No, no, no, absolutely. We’re all just busy aren’t we.

Natalie Chapman:            Yeah.

Neil Foley:                           Thank you very much, Natalia. It’s been really useful, I hope everybody’s enjoyed that. We’ll put Natalie’s website address at the bottom of the podcast. Thanks so much for listening and until next time, goodbye.

Natalie Chapman:            Thank you very much, Neil.






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